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polytope's avatar

> I am not sure I believe this explanation! When I look at subreddits for Go players who use Lizzie, my impression is that they don’t look at the reasoning all that much. They use it mainly to pinpoint moves where the winrate suddenly drops, so they can focus their learning on their biggest mistakes.

I think you should discount those observations a bit. The way typical players (mostly beginners and casual players) on reddit are using AI analysis in Go will not be representative of top players. I'm mid-amateur dan and still far from the top, but closer enough to stronger players that I can perceive myself some of that from my own personal experience. If you want to get a better impression of how strong players think about AI analysis, take a look at Michael Redmond's streams (9 dan pro) where he analyzes various games of both his own, or AlphaGo's games, with mention about various AI-suggested alternatives - it's not just looking for drops and parroting moves, but rather often diving deep into variations to place it into the context of his experience with similar positions.

> It is Shin, Kim and Kim who claim Leela Zero helped because, unlike AlphaGo, it showed the reasoning behind the move, not just the move.

> The true explanation why open source helped might actually be the inverse of what Shin, Kim and Kim propose. It might that the reason open source helped was that it let people do massive input learning

I don't recall who Shin, Kim, and Kim are, but assuming they're on-the-ground-informed about how players use AI in the same kinds of ways I've observed myself, then it's possible you might be misinterpreting what they are saying in a way that makes it more opposed to your proposed "true explanation" than it really is. There's a different interpretation that is not contradictory to your hypothesis. Which is that:

* Seeing just the isolated move that a strong AI proposes in a given situation is not so useful for learning. It's extremely hard to guess what situations that move generalizes to or not - slight changes to the surroundings can easily change the best moves.

* But seeing the all the sequences of moves that a strong AI proposes including all the relevant counterfactual sequences, is more useful for learning. e.g. "The AI proposes X, but the opponent can just respond Y, that seems bad for me? But the AI doesn't have the opponent respond with Y, it concedes and trades with Z! So presumably it thinks Y is not a refutation. Let me force X-Y and analyze again from there... aaah I now I see that Y fails because such and such stone is present. Now my brain is trained with the exact stone/shape/tactic to look for that makes X possible." And a dozen other different flavors of different kinds of counterfactuals that you could ask.

The latter is only possible if you actually can scroll back and forth through variations and interrogate the bot on different sequences interactively in different situations, which is only possible with e.g. a Leela Zero, and not just a static set of AlphaGo game records. And my own experience is that it actually is a big help, so long as you are independently strong enough at the game to be capable judging enough of the answers you get back when interrogating different sequences.

If you interpret Shin, Kim and Kim's "the reasoning behind the move" as referring to seeing the full sequences and counterfactual sequences, and not as referring to the low-level mechanism of learning - then there is no conflict with your hypothesis. Seeing counterfactual sequences and refutations and interrogating the bot interactively where you were unsure can be a big help for learning at the *same time* as the mechanism of that learning could be mostly pattern recognition training through lots of data. Indeed, seeing all those sequences is part of getting that concentrated data in order to train one's pattern recognition!

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gwern's avatar

> After a few years, the weakest professional players were better than the strongest players before AI. The strongest players pushed beyond what had been thought possible.

I think you are misinterpreting this graph, looking at the SSRN paper (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3893835). They do not make any statements I see about the population distribution Elo before/after or that the improvement means that an ordinary professional could now beat Ke Jie or Lee Sedol in their prime. This graph seems to just be about the average move quality across the whole Go player population increasing a bit per move. The lines are not the population, but simply the uncertainty around the mean. (This would be like estimating the American population at an average of 5-foot-7 with a standard error of 0.1 inches, and concluding that basketball players are impossible; or that if you measure the Dutch population at 5-foot-9 +- 0.1 inch, every single Dutch person is taller than every single American person; or that after a bunch of health interventions during the 1900s, the American population mean increased by 1 inch and then all young Americans were taller than all old Americans.)

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