Feb 13, 2011
Downes : Thinking:Our concept of 'self' is not created through internal reflection. It is created via our perception of self from the external world.
Downes : 'self' is a concept, like 'bacon' or hope', created through the production of artifacts in the world. We access this concept thru experience
Downes : 'self' is a concept, like 'bacon' or hope', created through the production of artifacts in the world. We access this concept thru experience
JeffreyKeefer : @Downes Doesn't this depend on one's locus of control?
10 minutes ago via TweetDeck in reply to Downes
Downes : This *especially* applies to the modalities - when we see ourselves *as* something - "I see me as a teacher" or "as I will be in the future"
Downes : Our control over this process is limited, non-existent while very young, and akin to growing a plant by watering, fertilizing, in later life.
Downes : Learning 'self' is like learning language, an internal response to public phenomena, it's just a word; it is not a distinct mental entity.
Downes : (I imagine someone has already said all this, but it's new to me)
djakes : @Downes Imagine that.
2 minutes ago via web in reply to Downes
PatParslow : @Downes Hm, would say we 'create' self through experience; not necessarily (ever?) consciously (includes interaction with others)
JaneDavis13 : @Downes "the world is in the person, just as the person is in the world" (Lindesmith et al, 1999, p14)
Downes : @PatParslow I think that what mechanisms there are for 'creating' self are indirect.
Downes : @PatParslow It's like our concept of 'Paris' - we *could* 'create' our own concept, but it's basically impossible, too many other factors
PatParslow : @Downes Oh yes, certainly. But we don't just access it, I think, it is "emergent" (for some value/interpretation of emergent)
Downes: @PatParslow : Emergent, yes. Exactly what I'm thinking. There is no entity 'self' in the mind, just a dense set of connections, a pattern
PatParslow : @Downes And no other 'entities' as such, either, though I still wouldn't rule out the concept of 'states' (semi-persistent patterns)
Downes : @JaneDavis13 @PatParslow 'Multilayered phenomenon' is where we go off the rails, I think - why postulate a structure like layers?
intrepidteacher : Not sure I could articulate what that last @Downes Tweet means, but I know I like it and get it on some level.
PatParslow : @Downes @JaneDavis13 I think impose is strong. There does appear to be hierarchical processing (e.g. visual cortex) (plus shortcuts)
JaneDavis13 : @Downes @PatParslow are we saying that mind = self? Are we imposing or recognising. Surely denial is as rigid a construct?
PatParslow : @Downes though, there, of course, I am conflating mind with brain ;-)
PatParslow : @JaneDavis13 @downes I'm /not/ saying mind isn't self ;-) how well are either really 'defined'?
AlanaCallan : @Downes have bn thinking abt self & work-based learning & planning - need 2 have awareness of self in order 2 frame learning tht makes sense
JaneDavis13 : @PatParslow @downes I agree Pat. There has to be clarity before positing in relation to either surely?
Downes : @JaneDavis13 @PatParslow Ya, there aren't neat categories, 'mind', 'brain', 'self' - I prefer to think of physical structures & concepts
JaneDavis13 : @Downes @PatParslow I am tending to look more at (social) processes, behaviours and social outcomes
Downes : @JaneDavis13 @PatParslow ...where the physical structure = the body & brain, concepts = emergent patterns in a net of artifacts in the world
PatParslow : @JaneDavis13 @downes Problem is, you will never get people to agree on meaning of those terms. Well, I can't. If you do, let me know!
JaneDavis13 : @PatParslow @downes interesting discussion though ;-)
PatParslow : @JaneDavis13 @downes I tend to look at phys structures & systems and how they work with processes, behaviours and social interactions :-)
PatParslow : @JaneDavis13 @downes I was trying to figure out the 'folk view' of the meanings, but a philosopher told me that was pointless :-S
PatParslow : @JaneDavis13 @downes I tend to look at phys structures & systems and how they work with processes, behaviours and social interactions :-)
PatParslow : @JaneDavis13 @downes I was trying to figure out the 'folk view' of the meanings, but a philosopher told me that was pointless :-S
Downes : @JaneDavis13 @PatParslow I'm sympathetic - there will never be agreement on the folk view, each new theory becomes part of that view
Downes : @JaneDavis13 @PatParslow and when someone says, eg., 'a concept of self is essential to learning', I don't know what that means. Literally.
PatParslow : @Downes @janedavis wrt internal/external I think it is a mix. We always reflect on external stimuli, (subcon, at least)
PatParslow : @Downes @Janedavis13 Ah yes, I tend to answer with "learning is about creating self" which I believe true, but prob equally meaningless
PatParslow : And, I have to say, what better way of spending Sunday than discussing mind, self, learning et al with @Downes and @janedavis13?
JaneDavis13 : @Downes @PatParslow I'll try and come back to that when I've finished my research :-)
PatParslow : @Downes @janedavis13 I normally think in terms of consciousness, but that is badly defined too. Emergent property of agent in social groups
PatParslow : @Downes same as 'self' I think. Form model of self (emergent property) from engaging with society/environment.
fvandenburg : @Downes agreed, it may not be created by reflection, but isn't reflection a possible means to consciously modify our self concept?
edCetraTraining : @mrch0mp3rs @Downes to be self conscious is to be aware of everybody but yourself.
mrch0mp3rs : @edCetraTraining @downes isn't talking about self-consciousness. Self-awareness relates the self in context of others
edCetraTraining : @mrch0mp3rs @edCetraTraining @downes classic phenomenology. Was just throwing in an adjunct thought to the one already out there. Back2work
Downes : 'self' is a concept, like 'bacon' or hope', created through the production of artifacts in the world. We access this concept thru experience
Downes : 'self' is a concept, like 'bacon' or hope', created through the production of artifacts in the world. We access this concept thru experience
JeffreyKeefer : @Downes Doesn't this depend on one's locus of control?
10 minutes ago via TweetDeck in reply to Downes
Downes : This *especially* applies to the modalities - when we see ourselves *as* something - "I see me as a teacher" or "as I will be in the future"
Downes : Our control over this process is limited, non-existent while very young, and akin to growing a plant by watering, fertilizing, in later life.
Downes : Learning 'self' is like learning language, an internal response to public phenomena, it's just a word; it is not a distinct mental entity.
Downes : (I imagine someone has already said all this, but it's new to me)
djakes : @Downes Imagine that.
2 minutes ago via web in reply to Downes
PatParslow : @Downes Hm, would say we 'create' self through experience; not necessarily (ever?) consciously (includes interaction with others)
JaneDavis13 : @Downes "the world is in the person, just as the person is in the world" (Lindesmith et al, 1999, p14)
Downes : @PatParslow I think that what mechanisms there are for 'creating' self are indirect.
Downes : @PatParslow It's like our concept of 'Paris' - we *could* 'create' our own concept, but it's basically impossible, too many other factors
PatParslow : @Downes Oh yes, certainly. But we don't just access it, I think, it is "emergent" (for some value/interpretation of emergent)
Downes: @PatParslow : Emergent, yes. Exactly what I'm thinking. There is no entity 'self' in the mind, just a dense set of connections, a pattern
PatParslow : @Downes And no other 'entities' as such, either, though I still wouldn't rule out the concept of 'states' (semi-persistent patterns)
Downes : @JaneDavis13 @PatParslow 'Multilayered phenomenon' is where we go off the rails, I think - why postulate a structure like layers?
intrepidteacher : Not sure I could articulate what that last @Downes Tweet means, but I know I like it and get it on some level.
PatParslow : @Downes @JaneDavis13 I think impose is strong. There does appear to be hierarchical processing (e.g. visual cortex) (plus shortcuts)
JaneDavis13 : @Downes @PatParslow are we saying that mind = self? Are we imposing or recognising. Surely denial is as rigid a construct?
PatParslow : @Downes though, there, of course, I am conflating mind with brain ;-)
PatParslow : @JaneDavis13 @downes I'm /not/ saying mind isn't self ;-) how well are either really 'defined'?
AlanaCallan : @Downes have bn thinking abt self & work-based learning & planning - need 2 have awareness of self in order 2 frame learning tht makes sense
JaneDavis13 : @PatParslow @downes I agree Pat. There has to be clarity before positing in relation to either surely?
Downes : @JaneDavis13 @PatParslow Ya, there aren't neat categories, 'mind', 'brain', 'self' - I prefer to think of physical structures & concepts
JaneDavis13 : @Downes @PatParslow I am tending to look more at (social) processes, behaviours and social outcomes
Downes : @JaneDavis13 @PatParslow ...where the physical structure = the body & brain, concepts = emergent patterns in a net of artifacts in the world
PatParslow : @JaneDavis13 @downes Problem is, you will never get people to agree on meaning of those terms. Well, I can't. If you do, let me know!
JaneDavis13 : @PatParslow @downes interesting discussion though ;-)
PatParslow : @JaneDavis13 @downes I tend to look at phys structures & systems and how they work with processes, behaviours and social interactions :-)
PatParslow : @JaneDavis13 @downes I was trying to figure out the 'folk view' of the meanings, but a philosopher told me that was pointless :-S
PatParslow : @JaneDavis13 @downes I tend to look at phys structures & systems and how they work with processes, behaviours and social interactions :-)
PatParslow : @JaneDavis13 @downes I was trying to figure out the 'folk view' of the meanings, but a philosopher told me that was pointless :-S
Downes : @JaneDavis13 @PatParslow I'm sympathetic - there will never be agreement on the folk view, each new theory becomes part of that view
Downes : @JaneDavis13 @PatParslow and when someone says, eg., 'a concept of self is essential to learning', I don't know what that means. Literally.
PatParslow : @Downes @janedavis wrt internal/external I think it is a mix. We always reflect on external stimuli, (subcon, at least)
PatParslow : @Downes @Janedavis13 Ah yes, I tend to answer with "learning is about creating self" which I believe true, but prob equally meaningless
PatParslow : And, I have to say, what better way of spending Sunday than discussing mind, self, learning et al with @Downes and @janedavis13?
JaneDavis13 : @Downes @PatParslow I'll try and come back to that when I've finished my research :-)
PatParslow : @Downes @janedavis13 I normally think in terms of consciousness, but that is badly defined too. Emergent property of agent in social groups
PatParslow : @Downes same as 'self' I think. Form model of self (emergent property) from engaging with society/environment.
fvandenburg : @Downes agreed, it may not be created by reflection, but isn't reflection a possible means to consciously modify our self concept?
edCetraTraining : @mrch0mp3rs @Downes to be self conscious is to be aware of everybody but yourself.
mrch0mp3rs : @edCetraTraining @downes isn't talking about self-consciousness. Self-awareness relates the self in context of others
edCetraTraining : @mrch0mp3rs @edCetraTraining @downes classic phenomenology. Was just throwing in an adjunct thought to the one already out there. Back2work
